[Introduction]
You’re listening to Lender Lounge with Kevin Kim, a podcast dedicated to helping our listeners in the private lending industry grow, improve and streamline their business. I’m Kevin Kim, Partner at Fortra Law, The Nation’s Largest Private Lending Law Firm. Join me as we chat with the best and brightest in private lending. They’re eager to share their years of wisdom and best practices for lenders, brokers, borrowers, investors and more. Subscribe to Lender Lounge on your favorite podcast platform and visit our website, FortraLaw.com to learn more about how we can help you scale. Check out the episode summary below for other valuable resources.
Kevin Kim: Hey guys, Kevin Kim here for another episode of Lender Lounge. As you can see, we are on location. We are about to open our 2025 Innovate Conference at the beautiful VEA Hotel here in Newport Beach. Today, we have a guest that I feel like everybody knows, but I am proud to call him one of my friends, one of my clients. Please welcome Sam Chivitchian. Please introduce yourself to our audience and let’s get started.
Sam Chivitchian: It’s great seeing you again, Kevin, like always, and the whole Fortra Law team. I’m happy to be here.
Kevin Kim: You remember the name, I like it.
Sam Chivitchian: Yes, yes. I mentioned to you, I was thinking about that on the way here. I’m like, I’ve been using the other name for over a decade working with you guys. But yeah, love the new name, the new brand. And, but yeah, so my name is Sam Chivitchian. I’ve been in the real estate industry for 20 years, started in my, in the mortgage lending background, 2004. And so I was on the mortgage lending, mortgage brokering side. And then when the market collapsed and went through the recession, I had to transition. So, I became a realtor, started doing listings, REO sales, short sales, and that’s kind of how I got into the investment space of real estate. And then in 2010 is when I did my first fix and flip, which was a short sale.
Kevin Kim: And you were the builder?
Sam Chivitchian: I was the borrower.
Kevin Kim: You’re the borrower.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah, the flipper. So, and that’s when I got introduced to private lending. And I knew about it. I didn’t know the true value of it and how it would, the process or the structure of it. But, and we closed it in 10 days. And I was like, dude, I’m in the wrong side of the lending business. And so I really loved the aspect of, you know, not investor to investor, meaning you’re not tied to an institutional capital or mortgage, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, where, you know, it’s, there’s a lot of common sense. There’s a lot of trust and credibility. As long as you can show you have a good investment and you’re the, you can execute and perform, you get it done. So, I, we, we did it. I fell in love with that. And I said, I want to learn more about private lending. And so I started investing more in that space and slowly left the, the, the mortgage and, and realtor business and just fully dove in and, and was with another company for almost six years.
Kevin Kim: Really? For six years? I didn’t know that!
Sam Chivitchian: Yes. With the LBC lending B guys. Yeah. We built a really good team. We were doing big numbers, big volume to about 2016. Great guys. We then kind of outgrew each other. And so I came to a place where I felt like this is, this is where I want, I might want to make a long-term career. So, I started secured capital lending. And, and so it’s been a great journey. And, and obviously you guys been there from day one. And so we’ve been just growing every year with resources, with our investors and most importantly you know, we’ve had the privilege of, you know, not having to market as much because 90% of our clients have been repeat borrowers or, or, or referrals. So, but yeah, been doing that full time. I love it. And, and, and, and I’m looking forward.
Kevin Kim: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting because like very rarely do we get a lender on the show that’s been around as long as you have very few shops have been around since what I would consider the inception of private lending, right? Cause you know, back then it was known as hard money lending. And today we call it private lending, but ultimately it’s the same industry. But now in 2025, we have 15 years later, can you believe it? 15 years later, the industry has changed so much. And I like to take a little bit of a time machine back to when you first started, you know, give us, give the audience an idea, a feel of account, what the, what the market looked like back then. And when you first started as a, as a lender and originator and in this sector, you know, California in and of itself has always had some version of hard money going back to the seventies, right? But even before that, I mean, uncle Chuck’s been doing it for how long, right? But, but in residential, we didn’t really see it as it is today. And right around when you started, 2009 was kind of the beginning of it because that was the recession. Give us a little bit of a trip down memory road of what the market used to look like. And let’s compare it to today. Cause I’d really like to think about that today.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. I mean, I’ve seen this thing grow to a national, more institutional space. I mean, we, I remember doing my first private money, or we used to only call it hard money back then conference in 2011, I believe. And there was only 30, 40 guys. Okay. And there was no capital providers. There was no third party vendors or, or any wall street money or, or, or, or secondary institutional vendors or anything like that. So, just kind of seeing that grow. And, and back then it was more like historically with hard money, it’s always been like, “okay, get the money from Bob and give it to Joe and 50, 60 LTV asset based loan.” And, and, and, and then that’s about it. There was no rehab components. There was no construction component. No, none of that. So, seeing that to now it’s really, I think played a key role in growing the real estate investor market, giving resources. And, and I think there’s more, it’s a dream come true for anyone who always dreamed to become a real estate investor, but just didn’t, couldn’t qualify for a construction loan with an institutional bank or, or rehab loan to come into and partner with, you know, private lender firms or funds or, or trustee investors, like everyone that’s technically qualified to be a lender in, in our space and to be able to start a fix and flip business or a development business or a fixed rent. So, yeah, it’s been amazing. You know, I started very young in, in real estate and I think, so I have, I’ve seen things grow and, and, and, and, and we were talking about it earlier and now, you know, with the market a little bit shifting, slowing down a little bit, we don’t have that much history or data to look back, like the mortgage industry say, okay, this is what we did in 2008 recession, or this is what we did in the nineties crash or so. So, there’s a lot of this stuff is still new, but if we feel like we’ve been in it for so long, now it feels that way.
Kevin Kim: It’s like dog years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the interesting part is institutionalization of the industry is really sub 10 years.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah.
Kevin Kim: If you think about from an institutional perspective, it’s really only been about five years considering that securitization is finally here and we’re only just seeing it now. But you know, the interesting part, what you’re saying is like, what our audience oftentimes forgets is that they think of private lending, they go hard money lending and they think residential real estate, right? They think fix and flip, they think, you know, building a house, right? Or DSCR now, right? They think about that, but they’re forgetting, especially in California is that the market was really built on a combination, right? Lenders in our industry in California have been doing commercial real estate loans alongside with fix and flip loans and construction loans. And, and you’ve been doing that stuff as well. And that’s, and the interesting part is like, that’s not the truth today, right? Not as many shops are doing both types of loans. You have a lot of shops that do only residential now. I mean, you guys, Securecap’s doing both, right?
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah, I think, and that’s kind of where I feel like we, it sets us aside a little bit. We kind of look at us as a one-stop shop for private money and hard money. And, and really the, the, the best way I can differentiate is everyone kind of, it’s the same, but not exactly. But so like, we like to call hard money, the true asset based loans, equity driven loans, where we’re not looking at experience. We’re not too much focused on FICO score. We’re not, you know, focused on financials. We’re really underwriting the property, the asset. We’re looking at the LTV and we’re really trying to get comfortable with the story. What’s their purpose? What’s their plan? And what’s their exit plan?
Kevin Kim: And can they get it done?
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. And I like to call it the triple piece, right? The purpose plan and exit plan. So, if we get comfortable with that, we’re going to make the loan, but it’s really is a location, asset, loan to value. So, that’s, that’s what the true hard money asset. And then the private money side of the business is a little more where, okay, we’ll go higher than, you know, with the hard money, you’re, you’re kind of capped at 50, 60, 65 LTVs. So, it’s more conservative LTVs where the private money you say, “okay, we’ll go to 80% or 90% on a fix and flip, but we want to see better credit.” “We want to see a track record.” So, it’s more like borrower experience, FICO. We want to see reserves. So, it’s, it’s kind of like, it’s not full dock because we’re not asking for taxes and pay stubs, but we’re looking more than just the assets. So, it’s kind of like a little bit of a hybrid in between a full doc loan. So, that’s where, and what I love about it is that there’s a market for both. There’s always going to be.
Kevin Kim: There is now.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah.
Kevin Kim: There is now. Yeah. And that’s the funny part is like, could you imagine like when you were starting 10 years ago, when we were doing, it was true hard money, like the fact that the institutional underwriting guidelines, running FICO, running appraisal on every deal, must use a rated service on every deal, like the underwriting guidelines that we’re seeing today, it would be a shock to the system back in, back in 2010, you know, 15 years ago. Right. And the fact that the industry has evolved that quickly is also, I give it, I give you guys, the operators, a lot of credit. Cause like go back to when you’ve sold your first loan. Right. Remember when the first aggregators came to the market. Right.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah.
Kevin Kim: And like, was that a big change to the way you operate it? Or you’re going to buy my loan? Like what? Like walk me through that.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah, that was a big shock. And just trying to kind of sit down and pencil down, pencil out the margins or the projections. It was like, it was very new, but we went through our test and trial period and, and saw the upsides and the downsides. And now we understood that, Hey, you know what? There’s a right time for it. And, and, and, and, and cause in the beginning when the rates were low, everyone wanted to sell, right?
Kevin Kim: Cause the spreads were massive.
Sam Chivitchian: The spreads were massive. And then, so a lot of originators built their whole business structure around originating, selling the notes. So, what happened is rates went up, things slowed down. Now your, your margins got thinner and now you can’t cover your overhead and you can’t sell. What do you do next? So, now you need to adjust and kind of transition. So, there’s a lot of learning that took place. And I think we came out stronger now. And, and, but it’s, it’s just been amazing.
Kevin Kim: But when you, when you started, you said something there that’s really important to our audience to learn. It’s like you started working with those guys, but you never left your core competency of the trustee investor. And then later down the line, I know we did a fund together, right? So, like you never left the core competency of funding the deals through your own network, right? Because 2020 was a, not a bad year for you. For our audience who don’t know, Sam won the “Originator of the year” in 2020, right? For at one of the national events. And so this guy thrived during the, one of the worst years on record for our industry. And so, I mean, that has to be a credit to the business model.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah, exactly. Because I feel like even though we, that, you know, the first quarter when, when pandemic hit and the whole world, when we went on lockdown, there was so much business that got interrupted because of that obviously global event that no one expected. People were in middle of escrows, they were in middle of projects, developments, and they needed to keep the financing going. And that played a key role where I kind of saw that a vision that, listen, like we have to adjust it. So, what basically, instead of, I felt like a lot of my competitors will, you know, put the brakes on and, and, you know, say, why, why should we market now? Why should we kind of get engaged now? There’s, you know, we don’t know what’s going to happen, but we kind of took the proactive approach and just continued marketing. And like you said, when the, the big institutional capital providers kind of put a freeze, a lot of the old traditional trustee or asset-based lending became so much more demand. And I had the, you know, the biggest year of the last decade of my career was that year. So, I was thankful for that. And it kind of just tells you, or is a testament that no matter what happens, you’re always, I look at hard money as like cash loans, kind of in the sense that, you know, investor to investor, or that no matter what, people or investors always need to leverage their cash. It doesn’t matter if they’re cash rich or cash poor, they all, you know, even, you know, billionaires became billionaires by being, being so smart with financing and knowing how to leverage, how to, how to use the banking system to their advantage. So, that’s never going to die. It’s, it’s, it’s a, I don’t know, it’s probably thousands of years old commodity.
Kevin Kim: The second oldest profession.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. So, I will never let that side of the business goes because, and if you noticed, and I’m, I have a lot of conversations with brokers around this, where, you know, the private money space has great products, they’re more aggressive, higher LTVs, but there’s also like that mortgage component to it, where there’s not sometimes not common sense underwriting, like in the sense, so you might have a, a great asset, low LTV, good location, everything that a, a trustee investor would love would, would jump on, but a private money lender or capital provider won’t touch it because the guy has a 620 FICO and their FICO minimum is 660.
Kevin Kim: Right. So, how many times has that happened? Right. So our audience will know, feel this pain. The FICO numbers have floated back and forth and there were horror stories. I remember you and I talked about this probably one time too, they just randomly lowered, raised the FICO score minimum for some reason today and now I have to go somewhere else. Like it happens so often, you know?
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah, exactly! And so there’s a, a home or there should be a place for those borrowers who say, okay, you know what? I don’t want 90%. I understand my FICO’s 620. I had a little hiccup two years ago, but I’m, I’m well now looking at my reserves, but I don’t want 90%. I’ll take 70%, 75. So, that’s when we come in and say, okay, you know what? We have our private money capital bucket and, but we also have our asset-based hard money loans that we invest in and we balance sheet. So, lower LTV. So, it’s common sense underwriting. Okay. It’s like, if you have a good FICO, good experience, we’ll get you hired.
Kevin Kim: That’s the disconnect I feel like. That’s the kind of phenomenon today. You have the conforming and the non-conformer, the qualifying and the non-qualifying. It’s the very interesting how we’re, we’re, we used to mirror the CRE bridge guys in our, in our space. Now we’re starting to mirror the non-QM guys a little bit. It’s very interesting. I would like to ask more, go back to 2015 because that’s when you opened up your shop, right?
Sam Chivitchian: Right.
Kevin Kim: So, you had, I’m guessing you, you started on your own. It’s just Sam.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah.
Kevin Kim: All right. So, give us a little bit of a, you know, I want to know more about the operational history about Circuit Capital. Because I remember when you opened your shop, I, you joined the, you, you, you called us and I was, you know, a lowly associate. I remember hearing, “oh, Sam’s on his own now.” “Great!” Right. And give us some more kind of a little more history because opening up your own shop, you, you were at a very well-seasoned industry, well-known industry provider, a lender in California, everyone knows LBC, right? You, you leave, open up your own shop and you bootstrap it basically. Right. So, like, give us a little bit more of the kind of where you were at and how you got there.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. I mean, it, it really started with, you know, being in the office seven days a week, just, you know, every day grinding and, and, and, and just getting out of the box using, of trying to appreciate every relationship, every, trying to make the most out of every, every opportunity. But it really kind of, it was something that I had in mind because I love the business. I loved, you know, it makes me feel good when I can help an investor build wealth or build real estate portfolio. And, and I played a key role in providing finance. So, I knew that that was a, a…..passion I had. So, in that day, when it came, it was, I was very excited, but also nervous because, you know, going in, like you said, on your own, now I had to get, you know, processors, I had to get sales reps, I had to, you know, get an admin team. So it was, you know, learning how to be a CEO and, and managing all of this. So, you know, did it step by step and, and with God’s grace, everything started kind of connecting and don’t get me wrong. You know, you, the, my, at least what I would tell myself is it’s okay to make small mistakes, but it’s not okay to make a big mistake. So, that’s where our partnership with, with now Fortra Law came in, where, you know, every time I was unsure about a big step or a key decision, I would call you or Nima or Melissa or any one of the, the partners and, and, and you guys would direct. And, and so just understanding, you know, your boundaries, when to be aggressive, when to be passive and, and just adjusting and, and, and growing in the business.
Kevin Kim: Yeah. And I still remember all the like random conversations we would have both at events, but also on the phone and, and you’d call him and the relationship that we built early on, when you were storing that beach, right? Early stage, you know, it, I, I love that part of many of my clients’ businesses, because we’re not, like you said, you’re, you’re helping your borrowers build their wealth. We’re helping our clients build their business. And, and look at today, I mean, you guys are, you guys are doing great. You guys are growing. You’re, you’re now developing again and you’re doing these builds. But what’s interesting is also like you built it out with scale, right? You’ve got, like, I mean, how big is the team now?
Sam Chivitchian: So, in-house and remote for about maybe 10, 10…..people.
Kevin Kim: So, back then it was just you.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah.
Kevin Kim: Yeah.
Sam Chivitchian: And, and I’ve always liked, I’ve never had the vision or, or the urge to go and build like a massive team because I feel like that’s just not me, you know?
Kevin Kim: We had that conversation, right? Everyone was chasing yield. I was like, Sam, you can go to all these different states. And like, I don’t know about that.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. Like I, cause you know, I kind of wear a few different hats, you know, as I mentioned to have my side venture business development business. So, I love building stuff and, and, and building rental portfolio and, and really, and just my focus is I rather give quality rather than just focus on quantity. And, and also, you know, personal life and quality of life is important to me, you know, with where I’m at, you know, with three small kids. And so, you know, I don’t want to be at a conference every other day or two. So, you know, and don’t get me wrong. There’s nothing wrong with that. There’s a, it’s just, I feel like you have to be honest with yourself where you’re at in your life and what your passions are. So, I, I said, “okay, you know what, I love this California or my lending in my backyard where I specialize in, where, you know, I can get comfortable or underwrite deals fast.” And the development business actually has helped me a lot to underwrite my loans better, right? Because most of the construction loans, rehab loans, instead of me going to third parties every time to review this budget.
Kevin Kim: Now you understand.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. And I can connect better with my developer clients or my rehabber clients. So, it’s actually intertwined. So, it’s, it’s helped me, but also gave me the flexibility to do my development business and build a rental portfolio.
Kevin Kim: And you build quite the quality of life. I mean, you’re, you’re enjoying yourself, but also the company is doing well. And you’re now you’re now, instead of just doing origination, you’re funding, you’re, you’re lender record, you’re closing loans yourself. You’re also doing, you’re maintaining the original story of the fractional investors.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah.
Kevin Kim: So, that’s the, that’s the beauty is like, you don’t, you’re not like you’re just, you’re adding components. You’re not, you’re doing it organically. You’re not forcing your hand a lot. We see a lot of folks do this just for purposes of scaling that they have. They are obsessed with scaling and they make that big mistake. They get over their skis and they do loans. They really shouldn’t have. And then they got, I mean, we saw this recently, right? So, like, you know, the whole “Baltimore debacle”, all the fraud and, and they get over their skis and all of a sudden now they’re holding loans. Now their default rates up in like the twenties, right. Or sometimes we have a, we have, so we have stories where they’re in the thirties now in the portfolio and it’s just, you know, investors are freaking out and now they’re having to shut down the fund or whatever it is. Right. So, I mean, I commend you for taking it, taking it incrementally is my point.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. And I think nothing can replace experience, the value. And, and I got really hit hard during the 2008 recession. That’s the one. And the, and for the very same reasons where I was just extra bullish or aggressive and kind of over leveraging and just focused on, you know, doing more and more and more.
Kevin Kim: Back then too. Everyone And I was younger.
Sam Chivitchian: And so when the market, you know, the crashed, you know, went into a financial crisis, fought through it. Now I kind of learned from that. And, and, and so if I see that something I take, I, as you mentioned, I like to go organically and scale at my own pace. And, and just like you said, I like do a little bit of everything in the sense, like we sell notes, we fund deals, we do balance sheet, we sell to the secondary.
Kevin Kim: You added those things.
Sam Chivitchian: Right.
Kevin Kim: Incrementally. You didn’t just jump in.
Sam Chivitchian: I’ll partner, I’ll…..invest and partner with my trustee partners and do some fractionalized notes. I partner with family offices, you know, so we, we, we, we get a taste of, because there’s a, a market and a demand and a product for……..all, all sides of our business, you know, and it’s just keeps growing.
Kevin Kim: I want to segue a little bit, a little bit in a different direction because our audience may not know a lot of our listeners and a lot of the industry, especially those who come to all the different events, they know Sam, right? You sponsor so many different great events and different, you know, video sponsor and all that, and you won the awards and all that kind of stuff, but they don’t know Sam. And what’s funny was, I remember when I first saw your name on some kind of like, like a event list or something like that, I’m like, I know that last name. Right. So, for our audience, who’s been listening for a while, they know I have a martial arts background and I did a little bit of judo and I saw the last name and I was like, I know that last name from somewhere. And I Googled it and I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. So, give us a little bit, a little more with Sam. Cause for those of you who don’t know, this is one of the most dangerous men in hard money. First of all, as I always joke, he’s a…..he’s a teddy bear, but he’s also one of the most dangerous men in hard money.
Sam Chivitchian: Not anymore.
Kevin Kim: Not anymore. Give us a little bit more personal background. Cause like you have such a cool personal story.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. So, it’s, it’s interesting cause it’s so opposite or, or not related to the financing and real estate side.
Kevin Kim: Completely opposite.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. So, I grew up in a, in a family of martial artists. Like my dad was a boxer. My uncle was a Judo World Champion. And so when I was- He’s a legend.
Kevin Kim: He’s a legend. Yeah.
Sam Chivitchian: So, when I was five years old, my, my uncle opened up a, a judo club dojo in Hollywood where I grew up in. Yeah.
Kevin Kim: You got to shout out the name because it’s a legendary gym.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. It’s a team highest stand. So, we’ve had over at least 50 UFC fighters come out of our gym and judo world champions in the last gosh, 30 plus years that it’s been going on. So, I got thrown into, to judo at five years old, became really good at it at a very young age. So, I started like, you know, it was a junior national champion, junior Olympic champion, and then started competing internationally and world championships and became Pan American champion. And so had that great success in, in judo, which then I was like, okay, what’s next?
Kevin Kim: You know, there’s no future in judo after championships. There really isn’t.
Sam Chivitchian: Especially in the United States. If you go to Asia, like Japan and Korea.
Kevin Kim: Become a celebrity.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. It’s, it’s huge. You can make a big career out of it. So, here, you know, then this is when UFC, when I was like in my 14, 15 years old teenage days, UFC or MMA started coming along, but no one knew about it.
Kevin Kim: This is like during the time when it was illegal in certain states.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. It was not mainstream. So, it started coming and I was young and, and I was, you know, black belt in judo and I was a brown belt in jujitsu. So, I was like, “what’s next?” I want to try this, you know, but this is when it was bare knuckle.
Kevin Kim: Yeah. No weight classes.
Sam Chivitchian: No weight classes. And so I started fighting professionally at 15 years old in MMA with 30 year old guys. And my, my parents hated it in there.
Kevin Kim: Right.
Sam Chivitchian: And my dad had to sign a waiver because of saying your……you know… your kid is such a minor. Looking back now, I’m like, “okay, what was I doing?” But when you’re young and when you’re driven and, and you don’t understand the full value of life. You think you’re indestructible. So, I started doing MMA and, and then became successful at that. And then eventually got to the bigger leagues into the UFC and I was on the UFC ultimate fighter show.
Kevin Kim: And I watched that show and he looks nothing like, I didn’t recognize him. I was a huge fan of the reality show. And I’m like, “wait a minute, wait a minute, wait, hold on!” Cause it didn’t add up, but the name looked familiar. And I was like, “that doesn’t make any sense.” “We’re in private lending.” “We’re in mortgage finance.” “This doesn’t make any sense.” It’s so cool.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. And so believe it or not, you know, I fought in the UFC and then I got really bad injuries. So, I was forced to retire at my prime, which was heartbreaking because I went through like a depression for it because I couldn’t, I had a sciatica nerve and herniated disc injuries in my neck and back, which I couldn’t recover from. So, that’s when, at the same time, a lot of people don’t know, but in my early twenties, I was a mortgage loan officer and fighting in the UFC at the same time. I always looked at martial arts more as a hobby or a passion. I never thought of it as my business. I’m going to, but so I loved the financing and real estate, which is too, but in the beginning, I never talked about, like, I never wanted to talk to my investors or clients that, oh, I’m a martial artist. And I was like, this guy’s crazy. Well, why I’m not trusting him with my, so it was just like, so I always never talked about it until over time, you know, get more, you know, I performed and we had a better relationship and it just kind of came out. But yeah, it was an interesting ride transitioning from professional sports and then into real estate. But I always tell my colleagues and we laugh about it. I’m like, mentally, real estate is even like your competition, right? Any industry there’s competition, just like sports. And I feel like private lending has became so competitive. So, the mental aspect of it is the same as martial arts. You’re fighting, you gotta be disciplined, you gotta put in the work, you gotta, you know, have network and have, we would call it training partners.
Kevin Kim: Same thing.
Sam Chivitchian: It is like you’re networking and build relationships and colleagues. So, there’s that. I think the martial arts helped me transition into business and where I got the qualities of kind of being more disciplined and focused and driven and not giving up and all of that good stuff.
Kevin Kim: I mean, it must’ve been weird “because I bet you the stereotype is like, oh, meathead or whatever.”
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah, exactly.
Kevin Kim: But it’s also like, I think today it’s different. Today, MMA is so big and so popular and there’s a new respect for them as actual martial artists. But back then there was this stereotype that these were just street fighters and knuckleheads.
Sam Chivitchian: Exactly. Because people didn’t know the sacrifice and how much you had to go through and the strategy, the planning, the game plan.
Kevin Kim: How much they all respect each other. Like you’re not going into that ring to like murder that person. You’re all friends and it’s a match.
Sam Chivitchian: Every guy I fought in a match, we would end up going and having beer and became friends afterwards. So, it was just, it was sport, but yeah. But I like real estate more because no one’s kicking me or punching me anymore. So, it’s a match.
Kevin Kim: You get choked out on a clothing.
Sam Chivitchian: It was fun when I was young, but not anymore.
Kevin Kim: But I still think that it’s one of those things that we’ve had this discussion on the show and we’re like athletes and martial arts is an extreme version of this. The level of discipline that you are able to maintain because of the background and the amount of resiliency that it teaches you is invaluable. I mean, there’s nothing better than that. That’s one of the hardest things in this space.
Sam Chivitchian: And I don’t think you can get taught this in school or it’s either like you got to be in the army or military or in sports. So, yeah, that’s why I always encourage all my friends. I’m like, take your kids to martial arts. They don’t need to become fighters, but any sports, team sport, like, you know, you get a lot of good life lessons.
Kevin Kim: I mean, there’s the benefit of discipline and resilience, but also the ability to understand team dynamics, whether it’s an individual sport or not. I mean, that’s, it translates to business so well. And I feel like in our industry, we have a lot of former athletes in the industry. We have a lot of former military in the industry as well. And that’s all kind of the same thing is that there’s a lot of success in that. And I see a lot of clients take that. Like we interviewed, you know, those guys, that’s the culture team up in Sacramento. I was interviewing Adam and he was like, we like to hire former athletes because they have that competitive drive. They have that discipline. They have that resiliency. They don’t get beaten up over a loss. Like they really appreciate the game. And that’s very hard to come by because it’s so competitive out there, right? You’ll lose a deal. It’s going to happen. You’re going to get beaten up on it. Your borrower is going to call you and complain. Bad things are going to happen. And that resiliency to kind of push through and just continue through what you’re doing is very hard for a lot of people in the industry. I see a lot of mistakes made because of that. And I mean, people will talk about like, you know, it’s kind of cliche, but like, I don’t think it is. I think it’s really important to think like, what can you take from your past, especially in sports or in martial arts and apply today. And so like, if for our listeners, like if you have any employees that you’re thinking about, potential employees you’re thinking about hiring, if they’re athletes, give them a shot. Like they’re really, really worth it. The ability to thrive in a competitive setting too, right? Like a lot of folks, they crumble when there’s like an inkling of competition. They don’t know what to do. And I think that when you’re faced with adversity, when you’re in martial arts, particularly, you’re getting punched in the face all the time. Like that is adversary in its simplest form. You know what I mean?
Sam Chivitchian: I remember when I started going to conferences in private lending and business, it reminded me of when I used to do like national and international tournaments in Judo. And you might say, no, no, like you might say, how does that relate to that is like, where I think part of becoming a professional in any field, whether it’s sports or business, you have to learn how to control your emotions. And in the sense that competition is great, but you have to understand it’s friendly competition, right? Like you can’t hate or be jealous of, because someone’s doing better than you. Actually, you’re supposed to want to be like them. You don’t want to be around those people. You want to befriend those people. So I felt that the more I went to conferences and the people that are, that I looked up to or the companies. And so I wanted to be, connect with them more and same as when, but if you don’t go, you stay in your box and you’re in a bubble. Yeah. Some people say, “well, what’s the point of spending thousands of dollars going to conferences?” “If I’m not going to benefit right there and then!” Well, sorry, but this is a long-term investment going to conferences and same thing. It’s like, you’re not just because you go and lose your first tournament doesn’t mean if you stick to it and learning.
Kevin Kim: So, it’s all, but you have to have the right mindset.
Sam Chivitchian: Right
Kevin Kim: Cause like, right. Even if you don’t gain, like right there, like what, if you go in there thinking, I’m just going to look for that short term, immediate gratification. And yeah, you’re not going to ever value and get any value out of a show, but even in a tournament, like you’re going to lose, you’re going to lose your first tournament. It happens. I lost my first five tournaments. Right. Like, but going into with, I’m going to learn, this is going to be a learning experience. I want to, and you said earlier, and this is the key thing, companies and people I look up to, right. I feel like there’s that big difference. There are operators out there in our industry that don’t look up to anybody.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah.
Kevin Kim: And that’s the flaw. Right. And that has to do with ego, right? Like you got to put your ego to the side here because at the end of the day, we’re all trying to grow our businesses here.
Sam Chivitchian: It’s not going to help you. It makes you, it might, you know, externally make you sound better or feel or make you feel better around some people, but there’s in the long run, it’s going to be part of your downfall. And, and that’s why I learned like, Hey, try to go network as with as many people I’ve had, I’ve been to a conference that I’ve met people at conferences that didn’t give me the chance to work with them or the opportunity until the third or fourth or fifth time I saw. And, and which is, you got to let things happen organically and, and, and naturally. So, yeah, you know, just a lot of comparisons, the mentality.
Kevin Kim: That goes to resiliency too, right? Because it takes a certain mentality to be resilient. It’s hard.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah.
Kevin Kim: You get beaten up a few times out there.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. You get beat up, you know, you’re going to fall, you know so that I’ve had, you know, nothing is just like, it’s easier to talk about it. But you know, the, the key thing is, is when you, and that’s why a lot of people, when I, when I talk to younger generation, I’m like, they’re like, Hey, you think I should do this business or I get into real estate. I’m like, you want to do something that you’re going to enjoy or have a passion for. Like you’d rather be a great plumber than a bad attorney. Right. I mean, because why? Because there’s a competition to every business, to every industry. And when you start getting to the elite level, the ones that are just doing it for money, they’re going to burn out. And the ones that enjoy it and have a passion, they’re going to fight harder. Why? Because they love it. It’s not just another job or work for them. They, they’ll go through that. It’s their reason to wake up in the morning. And that’s something that’s really important. Yeah. And so that’s why I’m like, listen, in this country, the best thing about this country is there’s no business that if you get to the elite, you’re going to be well off. If you’re a top 10% of the plumbing or electrician or attorney or, or the best ice cream shop. So, you got to do something you enjoy and so that you can try it, you know, have the motivation to get up there. Yeah.
Kevin Kim: And that’s, and I think that’s really valuable for our listeners who are new market entries. And that’s the fascinating part is that private lending is so dynamic and that even to this day in the weird times we’re in, which I want to ask your thoughts on, but in the weird times that we’re in today, there are a significant amount of new market entries trying to break into the industry. And they have the same story. I’ve been flipping houses. I’ve been doing this. I’ve been doing that. This looks like the move for me. I want to get into it. I want to do it. And so like one of the things that I would really hope that they hone in on is what Sam’s has been talking about on this level of resiliency, but also the fact that he, he looked up to people and was thinking about what can I learn from these people? And not just what can I gain from this particular interaction, but what can I learn from these people to grow my business? That’s invaluable. That’s why these networking, that’s why we network, right? It’s not just to get a deal done. Right. So.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. And you always got to look, okay, how can I give, add value to this guy’s business?
Kevin Kim: Yeah.
Sam Chivitchian: So, but yeah, I feel like, and we talked about a little bit and you just mentioned it some more is the, how valuable our private lending space is, is just besides just like, you know, the money component or whatever, but it has created a industry or space to welcome anyone can be a real estate investor.
Kevin Kim: Correct.
Sam Chivitchian: Because they have what the main thing you need to do a successful real estate investment is the financing is the key. And so there wasn’t a space before. I mean, it was the hard money, but not everyone has 30, 40% down to put, but some people can go and work for a construction company and gain experience or be a project manager and save up, you know, some money and then come to a private lender and be able to break through and become a real estate investor.
Kevin Kim: I mean, it’s gotten to a little bit of extreme though. I, and this is where I get nervous is that I’ve seen it gone to an extreme where lenders are telling me all the time that borrowers are calling them asking for a hundred percent financing and they’re finding it somewhere because those deals are getting done and it’s, it’s kind of scary. Those kinds of things are kind of scary.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, there has to be skin in the game.
Kevin Kim: Of course!
Sam Chivitchian: And I know some, some lenders will do that model and they try to get creative and, and, but that’s only good for the short run because once you go to a downturn, now you’re upside down. And, and yeah, I mean, but I think that’s just natural human nature in the sense that if you, if you throw that option out there, everyone’s just going to…
Kevin Kim: That’s true. The reason why they’re asking is because it exists somewhere.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. And just like, you know, during COVID everyone wanted to get free money because the government offered it. So, it was like, it’s our human nature.
Kevin Kim: That’s true.
Sam Chivitchian: But, but we have to kind of think further than that. And that’s what you get from experience. Sometimes you got to feel it on your own skin.
Kevin Kim: I do want to ask you kind of on the business growth side, cause you, you were talking, you were talking earlier, you started, you’re doing mostly just trustee investing and some brokering, but you transitioned to balance sheet lender recently. Can I, can we talk about that real quick? Cause I want to make sure we talk about that. Cause like, what was the decision process for you to transition to that model? Because balance sheet lending compared to trustee investing is a complete divergence from what you’re used to. Yeah. Yeah.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. And, and I think it kind of happened because of the market shift with the rates going up and the, and the, and, and the margins getting thinner and, and, and also just the experience that I was taking away learning from other balance sheet lenders that I partnered with, whether as a, from a broker capacity or doing trustees. And, and I came to a point where I said, you know what? I think I can do this. And also there’s value in doing this because I don’t want to be a one dimensional type of lender. Like, okay. So, if……there’s a quality loan, that may be not every loan that you underwrite, that’s a good investment or pencils out is going to fit the credit box of the secondary. No. Right. So, but, so those are great deals to keep on your balance sheet, you know? And so, all right, well, you don’t want to low LTV loan just because the borrower has only two flips and not three flips in the last two years. I’ll keep it on my balance sheet because I’m comfortable with the location and I’m comfortable with the, the, the leverage. So, that’s where I was like, you know what, this is a waste of opportunity because I can hold these loans on a balance sheet.
Kevin Kim: How long did that process, like that iterative process where you decide that take for you?
Sam Chivitchian: Well, I think it started that right after COVID. Okay. Or around that 2019 to 2020 transitional period there because of what COVID kind of impacted the economy with and the rates, and then following that, the rates going up and everything. So, I…..understood that, hold on a second. I have all these resources. I have all these, you know, trustee investors, capital providers. I need to be smarter and, and, and, and also understand that there’s a market for this and it, and kind of, it’s my strength or, or our best highlight has always been, we’ve been good originators because I do come from the background of mortgage brokering. So, our, you know, strength has always been being able to have a good deal flow. So, we see all kinds of scenarios, different types of loan products or requests. So, I always try to find the right resource or home for it. And then learning from those and then saying, okay, can I do this in house? And some of it, I said, “no, no, this is not something I want to touch because it’s just too much.” “Like, I’m not gonna do an office building loan.” It’s just out of my expertise, you know, can I, and…….but I feel like then it’s like, I’m just over-leveraging myself and putting my investors too much at risk. I want to balance sheet the……assets or, or the…loan products that I know that if things go wrong, I know how to get, get my investors out of it, or I know how to deal with this asset and liquidate it, you know?
Kevin Kim: And you chose a fund structure, right? You didn’t choose any other, you chose to go with a fund, LPGP fund structure. What was that? What was the reason behind that?
Sam Chivitchian: Well, and I’m not just saying this because we’re, we’re kind of sitting here and talking to each other, but I did not, I mean, we, everyone has a general idea of a fund, but you helped educate me a lot more on what is the right fund structure for my business model? Because it’s not like one size fits all for everyone, right?
Kevin Kim: Right, right. So, you could have done notes, you could have done all kinds of different things, but you chose the fund, the LPGP fund structure for yourself.
Sam Chivitchian: And I chose that because, first of all, I knew that a lot of the, my long in long-term investor relationships that I had already been doing, fractionalized notes or doing trustee, like partnerships with them, participations with them. I noticed that, okay, I can build a similar model that what I’m doing with them on one-off investments on loans and put it in a, and create a fund model for it. Right.
Kevin Kim: Because they were already repeating with you anyway.
Sam Chivitchian: Right. Yeah. So, and it really, what it did is it kind of created a separate vehicle for them so that, you know what, it’s something, yes, it’s a little bit different because now you’re investing in a fund, but now you don’t have to worry about, you know, having to reinvest every six months or not have to worry about, you know, that gap period of not, so.
Kevin Kim: Early payoff is like one of the worst things for a trustee investor, right?
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. And especially in a slow market, right? Now they’re calling you and outing you and everything. But, and so with our fund, we went from saying, “hey, we only want to sell notes in the early 2020s to the last year, year and a half saying, okay, you know what?” “We actually want good quality loans.” “We want a balance sheet.” And so our, you know, you shift and adjust with where the market takes you.
Kevin Kim: And I remember the first call we had, I was like, okay, Sam’s going to do a fund. I was really excited because I take it, I love it when trustee programs transition to a fund structure because their investors will, they underestimate. Yeah. Right. The sponsor almost always underestimates how loyal their trustee investors are and how excited they are that, oh, wait a minute, I don’t have to worry about early payoff anymore. I don’t have to worry about reinvestment. I can, I can just park the money with a guy that I trust in a program that’s going to earn year round. And it went through a few different iterations and we figured it out.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah.
Kevin Kim: But has it, I mean, has it been accretive to the business? Has it been helpful to building out what you’re trying to do?
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah, I think it’s definitely added an extra arsenal of a capital bucket that has helped me because, like I said, we get all kinds of originations, all kinds of scenarios. And what’s kind of unique about our company is that we’re not tied to one bucket of capital, right? So, we have our fund model, we have our trustee model, and then we also have, you know, warehouse lines or capital providers that are willing to. So, when we get a loan, we underwrite it. After we pre-underwrite it, we say, “okay, hold on a second.” “This is a great fit for our fund model.” This is a great, no, you know what, this is, we’re going to go true asset based trustee model on this one, or, you know what, this is a little bit, the location’s too far out for us. The leverage is, you know, we’re not, we’re going to, you, we’re going to partner this with our capital provider. So, this way we’re putting each loan where it really truly belongs than rather trying to put everything in, oh, we would need to put everything through the fund and then not being able to manage it properly.
Kevin Kim: Right, right. And that’s, that’s part, like, very common with a lot of the other interviews we’ve done in both big and small shops where you need to have a variety of capital strategies, right? One capital strategy is never going to be the one size fits all. It’s never going to be. There’s always going to be a need. I want to transition kind of a little bit more as to kind of what your thoughts are, where we’re headed, because man, this market’s weird right now. I mean, right now it’s, we are in August of 2025. It has been a weird year to say the least. I mentioned earlier, a lot of new market entries, a lot of smaller shops trying to break in, but also a lot of interesting stories way upstream at the institutional level. And you’re playing both sides, right? Because you have brokers sending you deals. You’re also working with the secondary. You’re also balance sheet managing. Where are you seeing kind of status quo of the industry right now? Because we’re, are we in a contraction? Are we in a potentially a recession? What do you think?
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. And this is kind of the topic of this year. I feel like I’m talking to, you know, I talk to developers and realtors and brokers and loan officers. And so everyone kind of has their own take, but I feel like you, you hit it spot on. It is a row. It’s been a roller coaster. Like I feel like every single month is a different market. Yeah. So, it’s like, okay, what’s going to happen this month? So, either it’s like crazy booming or it gets really slow or, and then half of the month it’s, it’s hot. And then the other half it’s slow. And then, you know, so I feel like there’s a lot of moving parts to it. I’m not going to sit here and try to say, this is exactly what it is because there’s no, I’ve learned my lesson doing that. And, and I stopped guessing long time ago, right? Cause I’m 90% of the time probably wrong. And then 10% of the time that I’m right, I’m lucky. So, it’s just, I feel like the economy is so complex. Then we think, Oh, we think, “okay, if the rates goes up, then that means this is what’s going to happen” No, it’s, it’s just, there’s politics, there’s wars, there’s the tariffs, there’s, you know, the interest rates, every, you know, there’s, you know, jobs, wages, all of that. It’s just too much above my pay grade. But what we do is kind of at least trying to be a step ahead of when the market shifts or, or knowing how to adjust to that and being so that we don’t make big mistakes. Right. And, and we, and we know how to exit if we’re in something where it’s going to be hit hard or there’s going to be a down, a downturn on that. So, I feel like it’s, it’s, I feel like we’re in some sort of a correction, at least maybe not everywhere in the country, but in a lot of different marketplaces, there’s definitely, I feel like the residential side has slowed down where we went from, you know, we’ve been so much used to a buyer’s market for so long. And now we, there’s more sellers than buyers. So, the buying power obviously has gone down and that’s really, a lot of it is tied to the high interest rates. And then, you know, you top that off with the inflation and, and, and everything is just kind of coming to a point where people are starting to feel it. So, it’s, it’s definitely slowing down. Now I feel like these are short-term pains or- Let’s hope.
Kevin Kim: Yeah.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. Because we’ve been riding on a, you know, it’s been 15 years that we haven’t had a real correction or any type of recession. I mean, if you look at it, yeah, not, but at least from 2014 to about 20, until the rates went up in 2022, it’s the market was hot.
Kevin Kim: It was on fire. Yeah.
Sam Chivitchian: So, now it’s kind of, because it’s slowed down and now we’re all like panicking, but I don’t think it’s as bad as we may think. I feel like we’re going through some small correction, which it’s, if, if you really look at it, it can be a good thing. It’s, it’s healthy for the economy to reconstruct itself. The only, the down part is that there’s politics and there’s so many other stuff that we don’t control that can change that. And so we have to kind of just be prepared. But my model has always been make calculated risks, whether the market’s going up or down. This way, if you stick to, I’m not going to be greedy, but I’m not going to be fearful. I’m going to do where I feel like I have experience or a specialty in, and, and I’m always going to make calculated risks, whether the market, this way you’ll be safe. You know, at least you’re not going to get hit hard or if you, you know.
Kevin Kim: Well, let’s talk about this calculated risk. Okay. So, last year, if someone told me they were still doing a lot of commercial real estate loans, commercial real estate, right? Bridge loans and construction loans. I would have told them they’re crazy. Last year, 2025, commercial seems to be coming back. And a lot of our clients are saying, well, Hey, we’re getting opportunity in commercial now. It wasn’t, it wasn’t less than three years ago that a private lender would say, I don’t touch commercial. Not anymore. Right. Not my thing. This past year has been a little bit of a shift in that regard. So, that that’s kind of positive because I felt like at least that commercial, the commercial real estate finance market was in a very strong downturn for a very long time. I mean, I don’t know how long, but pretty long. And now they seem to be digging themselves out of that mess a little bit.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. And I think why? Because they, they paid the price for it. I think, right. COVID was, I mean, really, COVID hit commercial really hard. And like you said, no one wanted to do commercial rehab or construction loans, but I feel like it corrected itself, you know, the, you know, a lot of price dips on office buildings and retails and these single tenants, you know, they got hit hard. It kind of corrected itself to the prices. And so now investors are like, hold on a second. There’s an opportunity here. It’s becoming affordable again to, to, cause you know, for at one point up until COVID commercial was, was hot. It was hot and it was expensive. It came very late.
Kevin Kim: And there’s a lot of yield chasing and a lot of risk taking.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah, exactly. So, now there’s better opportunities. And, and, and so and I think, and with, like I said, that’s what we’re seeing, at least on our side is we’re seeing more originate, like two years ago, 90% of our loans were residential, 10% commercial. Now it’s more like 70, 30, maybe 65, 35, which is a big difference. So, we’re now more open and more optimistic on, on taking on commercial deals.
Kevin Kim: And it’s not just you guys, right? We’re seeing this nationally. A lot of the private lenders have done increased volume and multifamily, right? And multifamily falls in the commercial bucket. Right. And so they’re, they’re seeing it that what once was a, we don’t touch five plus multifamily has become, no, we’ll do that. Right. We want that because there’s the opportunity. Right. And so it’s good. I like a diverse marketplace. I prefer a diverse marketplace. It was getting kind of concerning that for about six years, everybody was just doing resi and it was getting a little bit concerning. Cause like we’re, we’re feeding the bubble almost like, yeah. And now I feel like at least the direct lenders and the local lenders, the regional lenders are saying, well, no, no, no, we’re open to all of it. And we want to do all of it. As long as it’s, you know, calculated risk, not too aggressive. We’re not doing like, you know, super aggressive second position or mezzanine loans or that kind of stuff.
Sam Chivitchian: Right. Yeah, exactly. And I, and I feel like on to add to what you asked earlier about where we’re at in the market is I feel like maybe we’ve been a little bit, our private lending space has became oversaturated in the sense that everyone wants, I mean, there’s so much, especially here in California.
Kevin Kim: Oh my goodness.
Sam Chivitchian: Oh my gosh. So, everyone’s a lender, wants to be a lender. I feel like it’s similar to the 2007, 8, where everyone was a mortgage broker and, and, and loan officer.
Kevin Kim: Don’t jinx us, Sam, don’t jinx us.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. So, you know, it’s, so I feel like, you know, that naturally happens because when a, when an industry or a certain specific space grows so fast in so short amount of time.
Kevin Kim: Exponential growth for at least 10 years.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. Everyone’s trying to jump on that wagon, but then all good things must, must come to an end. Not permanently. We’re not going anywhere, obviously. I mean, but.
Kevin Kim: Yeah. I’m not worried about the local regional guys. Yeah. I’m not really worried about that. There are local guys that if they’re married to the capital markets, once they, cause they’re going to be the first ones to pull, pull out. If the market takes a left turn, they’re going to have to pull out. Wall Street’s fickle and Wall Street’s smart. They’re not going to lose money. And so they’re going to pull out, but that’s the question mark, right? And then the local guys, the regional guys that are diversified, like you guys are, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll weather the storm.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah.
Kevin Kim: We, we saw it in COVID. COVID was a good example. I mean, COVID was probably the worst case scenario for a vast majority of the industry. And there were some, and the guys that thrive were guys like you, the local guys, the balance sheet guys, the regional guys. It wasn’t the, oh, I sell all my loans to secondary guys. And the attitude changed, right? When you notice that after 2020, you don’t see as much like, oh, I’m just basically an originator for XYZ, right? You don’t see that anymore, which is good.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah.
Kevin Kim: One last point before we have to, we’re kind of running out of time. I want to get your thoughts on where we’re going, because you are on the ground here and you are, you are, I would tell you, I would tell you as a California specialist, you know, this market really well, especially here down in Southern California. It’s a tricky market, man. I mean, we’re in a weird place in Southern California and in general, California at large, but also just the private lending industry, because the industry follows California’s trends, I feel like.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah.
Kevin Kim: Where do you, where do you see us going?
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. I mean, if I’m going to kind of stick to the next maybe five-year projection, because that’s, other than that, it’s wishful thinking.
Kevin Kim: Yeah.
Sam Chivitchian: I feel like where we’re at right now, since things with the high interest rate market and inflation and, and with so much over saturated with, with our lending space, I feel now it’s more about whatever you’re doing, whether you’re a developer or you’re a lender, it’s about quality. If you can deliver a quality product, there’s always a market for it. Okay. But the guys who were just got used to just, you know, easy money or, or they’re going to have to do some more work, you know, we’re going to, so, so I feel like you got to get more creative. Like for example, in California in the last couple of years, there’s so many new housing state bills, SB9 and AB23. So, a lot of these new bills came into play for affordable housing and a lot of this. So, why, and this is a good opportunity for some developers who said, Hey, you know what? A lot of the, for example, the multifamily development projects started not penciling out because of the high interest rates. And they move into affordable. Yeah. Now, so there’s that affordable or there’s the ADU SB9. So, you got to get more creative and put, really start sharpening your pencils more now and, and understand, be more, you have to be more professional. So, and, and what you’re doing compared to when before anyone would buy any property and just put a little lipstick on it, on, on the rehab. And it was, the market was so hot. The interest rates were so low, everyone was buying a house, right? So, you didn’t need to deliver any special product or finished product, but now times have changed, you know, and so we’re in a market where there’s still business. It’s still, you know, a lot of people is just, if you’re new, I encourage you to get more educated, to, to, to get a lot of the, you know, do your due diligence, surround yourself with the right people with the right team before you start getting into the investment, you know, especially, yeah, you know, if you’re a private lender, you know, partner yourself with the right legal counsel and, you know, yeah, know what you’re doing because it’s not those, you know, easy days are over, you know, at least for now, the next three to five years, you know, things might change after that, but I feel like we’re going to be in this similar type of slower market where things are not moving as fast, but it’s now more about quality and, and, and delivering good product, you know?
Kevin Kim: And the unfortunate part is there’s been a lot of, during the kind of, I would call fast and loose years in the past, you know, five years, there’s been a lot of what I’ll call gurus have been providing a lot of interesting strategies to break into the market and they’re not necessarily the right way to do things and they’re not quality product, but they are high yielding product, right? And it’s like, well, there’s a reason why you’re able to get 15% interest in California. There’s a reason why, you know, you talk to an actual specialist attorney like myself and I’m a hero. You’re doing what? Like the first thing I, I respond with, you’re doing what? And so there’s a, you know, there’s a time and a place for that stuff, but it’s not something that you can build an actual business around. And there’s a lot of these guys are taking really, really exceptional risk out there. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of fascinating both at the bottom level, but also at the top level too. So, yeah.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah. You know, when people get desperate, you know, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll do some stuff that, you know, they’ll take those risks and yeah, I mean, sometimes it’ll pay out, but most of the times it won’t. So.
Kevin Kim: Yeah. Well, you know, the nice part is, is that this whole show is themed upon educating the audience about how to build the business in private lending the right way, right? We’ve interviewed all types of people and the theme is still, it’s still the same, like the looking behind the curtains of companies that have made it. And, you know, I’m, I’m really proud to call you a client, but also a friend because you’ve done it the right way. I feel like, and I appreciate the, the, the time you spent with us today. And also the perspective, cause I, I didn’t, I didn’t think of it the way I didn’t think of certain things, the way you mentioned it. And it’s kind of changed the way I’ve thought about things today. So, I really appreciate it.
Sam Chivitchian: Yeah, no. And, and this is, you know, this is what’s great about the, the conferences that you guys host and Virtualize is being able to have these opportunities to sit down and share ideas and, and experiences. And, and it’s really helped me grow and, and, and become, you know, make wiser decisions in my business and, and, and everything like that because iron sharpens iron, as they say, you know, but yeah, it’s a…..pleasure. And again, you guys been, gosh, it’s been almost 14 years that, you know, we’ve been, uh, I consider you guys as a friend of the company and, and so excited to be here. And, uh, it was a lot of good conversations. Good talk, my man.
Kevin Kim: Well, that’s all the time we have for this episode of Lender Lounge. Thank you for listening in. This is Kevin Kim signing off. Subscribe to Lender Lounge on your favorite podcast platform and visit our website, fortralaw.com to learn more about how we can help you scale.